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I don't see why a woman should be looked down on and punished by society for doing something with her time and not just sitting around waiting for a relationship before she decides to relocate, or travel, get a pet, or buy a house.
With that said, success in a woman is not a turn off. Independence is not a turn off. Education is not a turn off.
An ATTITUDE of not needed anyone can be a huge turn off. Any person, man or woman, wants to be needed. People are shallow enough today to assume tis need is temporal or physical. I could get by just fine in this world monetarily without my wife... I need HER, not her money, car, house, or even body.
The problem is people not realizing that we need WHO someone is not simply thier stuff.
I was also shocked when I found out someone already had a book with the same concept and title. I felt cheated almost. Like I had been hoodwinked.
I see this a lot in the south. The women bat their lashes, "Oh, I need help, what can I do without you??" And the guys go right along with it. Up in NY and Jersey the guys are grateful for capable women. At least in my experience.
What decent man wants a broke woman who cant take care of herself? Im sorry the days of women swooning and not being able to handle more than picking out drapes is long gone. Once again we have a man trying to put the responsibility of the relationship on the woman.
He is so full of it. I will post a video interview of him later. He is as lame as they come.
What are women supposed to do when they have no fathers to meet their material needs? Prostitute themselves. He is obviously envious of Black Women's material independence.
Some of us have become independent not out of choice but out of a real need to survive. If no man is out there to give it to you, you have to get it yourself. So are we suposed to stay single and never be partnered?
Well if Black men have an issue with that then we should go with men who don't have a problem with it. These men from other races have enough of their own to be threatened by a working Black Woman.
if e speaks generally for black men then we have a serious problem.
If a man is scared of a woman who worked hard to get where she is and for everything that he has then it is because he is insecure and it's not the womans fault.
Also some women don't have the luxury of not working or going school and being taken care of by a man. Some women do have to be independent out of necessity.
Now this is not to say some men aren't tripping hard over my success, but those men get dismissed right along with those who don't exhibit gentlemanly behavior.
However, my overall reading of that Steve Harvey quote is let a man show he is a man. This doesn't mean he needs to buy you a house, but he can hold the door for you and buy you a cup of coffee.
As far as the Lady with her own money, car, house, brinks security, pistol, and guard dog. Well I have post traumatic stress and frankly this is my kinda woman. I have other ish to do and a woman that can take care of herself means I don't have to caudal or babysit. Guys who need the damsel in distress need to grow the freak up, sounds like a lack in self confidence to me.
I doubt even if you went back to the old fashioned days where the lady was cooking cleaning raising babies, you still wouldn't have to many damsels in distress. All the old women I knew growing up were cast iron. Those women could run fortune five hundred companies. Being domestically gifted doesn't mean your freaking helpless. "Oh woe's me, if only there was a MAN here" Gimme a break.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/30158559#29255870
On one hand, they want an independent, intelligent woman who can bring something to to the table. However, if she is "too independent" then they don't want her.
This is some bullshit.
In my experience of dating IR, not once did the man feel inferior because I go to school & have future goals. They were quite pleased and were eager to hear more of what I wanted to do. And they in return had education and future goals as well.
I remember dating a couple of bm and whenever i told them i wanted to travel, work for the gov't, and possible own my business. Instead of saying that's great or things of that nature, they would ask question as if they were offended such as "why would you wanna travel?", "why you wanna work for the white man?", "there's no black people in europe". Just plain 'ol ignorant answers.
so when i read those quotes from Steve Harvey I'm like "typical answer". He may have a few pointers here and there, and it's not like anything we don't already know, but the minute they start talking about sucess and feminism, im out the door.
I think people miss the point when they point out one thing in a book with 230 pages of so of written material to focus on. He's with a wife now...Marjorie. My question is this: would you want to take advice, any kind of advice, from someone who has NEVER been in a position you see yourself in? Sort of like, would you ask someone who's never taken an alcoholic drink before in their life how to stop drinking? Would you go to a woman who's never had a man and ask her what you should do about your man problems? My thought would be, um no. People go to church and listen to the preacher talk about the word of the Lord and take the words out of his mouth with conviction, never thinking about how that preacher wasn't always saved...that he'd been through and done some of the same stuff you're going through and doing. But you don't let that stop you from hearing what he has to say now...about that stuff.
Steve may have taken his theory in writing the book, but if the idea of his came originally from a chick, I doubt that he could have stolen her idea completely. Women should never profess to know what men are thinking, just as men should never profess to know what women are thinking. It's almost impossible to get it right...we just don't think in the same terms.
All of that is to say that Steve Harvey, in his book, was only giving ONE MAN'S opinion (his own, with a little bit of reference to his personal friends' opinions) about how women should pursue men and what they should think about when doing it.
And that one particular quote that was take out of the book...was just saying that even though we women do have all that and the pistol, too...why not every now and again let the man show us how he's able to provide for and protect us by letting him do something for us?
I think we women take things way to personally these days. What are we gonna do, look the man in the eye, tell him we don't need him for all that stuff, as well as show him that we can do it for ourselves and then be mad when the man steps off and lets us do it for ourselves? Ladies, whether we like it or not, just like the men, we can't have it both ways; well, we can, but not without unwanted criticism and consequences. It wouldn't hurt every now and again to just praise your man for being a man...If that's what he's doing. If he's being a pussy and he's ya man, who you really gonna be mad at???
With that being said I do agree that women need to let their men feel that he is contributing something to the relationship besides sex. That is okay if he wants to check the oil in your car, even though you can take it the mechanic or do it yourself. And sometimes let him order for you not because you can't but because sometimes he just wants to show you that he really does know what you like...lol
I guess we all need to remember that everyone wants to feel needed in relationships and it's just not one-sided.
Having said that, I think Steve has offered some insight into what men think. The oft cursed movement of feminism is a very sore spot for some men. Tell a man of any color that he's background to your foreground and he's going to bounce. Some women hold their achievements over a man's head. There are men like Brohammas said that value the ideals of the modern woman. I have not read the book and I'm rather disappointed that Steve allegedly plagiarized another author.
Having said that, I am uneasy, for want of a better word, that criticism cannot be given to black women in general without it being internalized into a personal attack. As do alot of professional women, we struggle hard to find that work/life balance. Heck, there's even committees set up in some businesses to address this issue!
I haven't read the book but if he plagiarized it, I cannot imagine another woman saying that a woman should sacrifice her livelihood, career and sense of self for a man. That's certainly not something a man would do.
That is what I am saying. I grew up being told to be self reliant. I need my husband, don't get me wrong. I love him to death, but I need to know if ten years down the line and something awful happens, I can pull myself or my family up by the bootstraps and take over if needed, be it whether he leaves, gets sicks, loses his job, or if he died (please don't die on me man).
I don't think that means that I don't need a man, it just means that when and if a man isn't able to step up, I can take the helm if needed and support the family in a variety of ways.
I don't see why a woman should be looked down on and punished by society for doing something with her time and not just sitting around waiting for a relationship before she decides to relocate, or travel, get a pet, or buy a house.
Exactly. I find it sad.
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LOL @
Steve Harvey should keep his advice limited to Bullet Head and all the other kids on the wannabe Saved By The Bell show.
You are so wrong brohammas :)
With that said, success in a woman is not a turn off. Independence is not a turn off. Education is not a turn off.
An ATTITUDE of not needed anyone can be a huge turn off.
I definitely agree. I think it is a turn off for a man or woman to do such a thing. It is insulting to a degree to the other person when you lord any type of success over ones head. I think in my relationship, in the past, my husband has felt unneeded. I think he likes the idea of supporting me, and is happy to let me stay at home and be a house wife. When I met him, I changed my own tires,did my own oil changes. I made about the same amount of money he did (read we were both broke college students), and at times I was on the "I don't need a man to get by bandwagon". I am pretty self sufficient around the house, and sometimes he feels I don't need him, and he kind of sulks. Case and point, the running toilet incident.
Just recently with my latest issue, on my second night in the hospital, I told him to go home, I would be ok. The poor man was tired as all get out and had only left my side once or twice, and only if my mom or dad were with me. He was sleeping right next to me in the "comfy" hospital room chairs. He had barely slept and hadn't even gone home to shower. I told him I would be ok, and practically kicked him out. I even told him, I am "strong" I can do it all by myself.
Fast forward to 1:00 am as I am balling my eyes out. I let my husband get two hours of sleep and called him. He came right back up to the hospital and went to sleep again in a comfy chair. Poor man did all that because I told him I needed him, and I told him to make sure to put that in his rolodex brain as proof that he is needed.
My first few days back on the internet once home (you know I can't live without it) involved researching cerclages (an issue I will get into later). I like to pretend I know more than I do in regards to medical terminology beyond my experience in working disability insurance, when I go to the doctor. My regular doctor thinks it is funny and humors me most of the time. She calls me virtual doctor. I don't know how my new acquired perinatologist might feel about that, but oh well. I again digress (see I am kind of back, sort of). I had my husband help me decide on the best course of action in my virtual doctor ways. I wanted him to know that I know he lost his baby too, and the next time we do this, we are going to ensure it sticks. He looked at me crazy, but was happy to help me decide what cerclage is right for me (yep transabdominal cerclage for me, I guess I should discuss it with my perinatologist first)
I want him to feel needed now, and he knows I need him really bad right now. He has been nothing but strong since all this mess happened.
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I see this a lot in the south. The women bat their lashes, "Oh, I need help, what can I do without you??" And the guys go right along with it. Up in NY and Jersey the guys are grateful for capable women. At least in my experience.
Anon, don't let the southern women fool you. Down in the south we just work differently. I had some clients from New Jersey that I swore up and down hated me, they talked to me like I was a red headed step child. They were really blunt. When I begged to be taken off of the account, they were in shock and flew me to NJ to encourage me to stay with them, since I was the only one who knew how to handle them. Needless to say they did all that to tell me they liked working with me, but I couldn't sure as hell tell.
In the south we just have a different approach. The "you attract more flies with honey than vinegar" ideal. It works well down here. Those women might be batting their eye lashes, but they run it. My husband's grandmother is a perfect example of this. The woman is possibly the bossiest woman ever, but the way manages to boss people makes them think they aren't being bossed around at all, including her husband.
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When he writes a book tellin men dont do all the stupid shyt I did/how to be a real grown azz man even if she gives you the cookie within the first hour....I'll hit Barnes and Nobles.
For real.
Once again we have a man trying to put the responsibility of the relationship on the woman.
Exactly.
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That you are posting on something else is evidence of the worm turning. Good for you.
Yeah I am still got my husband on edge, but I am working through it :)
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Some of us have become independent not out of choice but out of a real need to survive. If no man is out there to give it to you, you have to get it yourself. So are we suposed to stay single and never be partnered?
Exactly. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't. We are all gold diggers, but if we have our own money we automatically don't need a man. Let's face it, if most of us are single, we can't be sitting around with hope a man with take care of us. It just doesn't happen like that for black women in general, at least not here in America.
That is what I don't get. I think it is possible for a woman to be successful and still need love. Material needs don't replace emotional needs.
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Many men understand their masculinity through performing the roles of protector and provider. I think that for many of them, when they see a woman who is totally self-sufficient they wonder how they will be able to exhibit their manhood.
I believe this to be true in most communities, but in the black community things are different. It is seen in some circles as weak to actually settle down and get married. The concept of having a child is "getting trapped" by a woman. It isn't seen as a positive. A man believes the goal of a woman is to take all his money and if she has his child, get as much child support as possible. Being a provider to some is a hinderance. I do definitely feel that men in general want to protect and provide for their families. That is how the nuclear family was laid out, and I do think the advancement of women in education and the workplace has watered down and made the gender roles less defined, making it confusing for some men to navigate.
Interestingly enough, I talked to my husband about this, and I asked him if he were single, would he prefer to date a woman with no kids and a successful career or a woman who is lower income with kids. He said both, depending upon how well they meshed together. Money isn't always a factor to men.
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I doubt even if you went back to the old fashioned days where the lady was cooking cleaning raising babies, you still wouldn't have to many damsels in distress. All the old women I knew growing up were cast iron. Those women could run fortune five hundred companies. Being domestically gifted doesn't mean your freaking helpless. "Oh woe's me, if only there was a MAN here" Gimme a break.
Exactly.
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On one hand, they want an independent, intelligent woman who can bring something to to the table. However, if she is "too independent" then they don't want her.
Exactly, there is no balance.
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so when i read those quotes from Steve Harvey I'm like "typical answer". He may have a few pointers here and there, and it's not like anything we don't already know, but the minute they start talking about sucess and feminism, im out the door.
I don't know why feminism is vilified so much in the black community. Wanting to be an equal shouldn't be seen as bad. Maybe you aren't equal financially, but you can balance each other out in other ways. I think that feminism to most means you are an evil lesbian who hates men, instead of it being a movement to recognize gender equality.
Of course too, the feminism movement is different for black folks than white folks LOL
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I think people miss the point when they point out one thing in a book with 230 pages of so of written material to focus on. He's with a wife now...Marjorie.
I hate to say this, I am not buying the Steve Harvey book, the only reason I know about the book is because I got an email about the plagiarism from some random person trying to get it out there. I find most relationship books to be worthless. The "He's not that into you" and the like do nothing to further relationships in my opinion. I received this quote from an email and that was the point of the post, not his book in general.
My question is this: would you want to take advice, any kind of advice, from someone who has NEVER been in a position you see yourself in? Sort of like, would you ask someone who's never taken an alcoholic drink before in their life how to stop drinking? Would you go to a woman who's never had a man and ask her what you should do about your man problems? My thought would be, um no.
I personally find folks who get married three times, need to start looking at themselves, and not just the other folks they were married to.
I doubt that he could have stolen her idea completely.
he probably didn't. She even says she never said that in her book, but in other facets of his book, she said things were taken almost verbatim from her book.
Women should never profess to know what men are thinking, just as men should never profess to know what women are thinking.
But the title of the book is "Act like a lady, think like a man". So I would assume the book wants women to think of things from a male perspective.
why not every now and again let the man show us how he's able to provide for and protect us by letting him do something for us?
Why is it automatically assumed if a woman does have it all, that she doesn't want a man to protect and provide? That is what I don't understand. Black women have been told we are too uppity in expecting a man to be gainfully employed and act like he can be faithful. We are now told men don't want us because we work and go to school. To me that is a hot mess. I can't deal with a man of any race who doesn't want me to further my education. My father didn't hold my mother back when she decided she wanted to go back to school to get her master's. He was happy she wanted to further her education, and without him she wouldn't have been able to do it. He didn't see it as her trying to be independent, he saw it as her wanting to better herself, and my argument is that a woman can be gainfully employed, educated, and still need love, the two aren't mutually exclusive. My husband knows I need him, but he also knows I can do things on my own. I can take care of myself, and yes I had to learn to let him get my gas, or go get my oil changed, and my car washed, but he knows my need for him goes way beyond that. I need him emotionally and physically; not just financially and for killing bugs.
I know women who make more than their men, and they still need those men, as they work as a partnership. No one is the boss over another, and for some reason we got folks walking around in 2009 thinking it is important that the man regains his role as "head of the household".
It wouldn't hurt every now and again to just praise your man for being a man...If that's what he's doing. If he's being a pussy and he's ya man, who you really gonna be mad at???
So we gotta praise him, but then if he is a pussy, it is the woman's fault. I hate that everything in regards to a relationship is the fault of the woman. If he strays, it is her fault. If he is a pussy, it is her fault. If he is a deadbeat, it is her fault. Are men not capable of being at fault for anything?
No one said you don't praise your man, no one where in this post was this mentioned. I am just tired of men wanting it both ways. For women, you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
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With that being said I do agree that women need to let their men feel that he is contributing something to the relationship besides sex. That is okay if he wants to check the oil in your car, even though you can take it the mechanic or do it yourself. And sometimes let him order for you not because you can't but because sometimes he just wants to show you that he really does know what you like...lol
Exactly. I had to learn it was ok for my husband to help me, I didn't have to do everything myself, including the housework, and the oil changes.
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Having said that, I am uneasy, for want of a better word, that criticism cannot be given to black women in general without it being internalized into a personal attack
Are you not sick of the black woman attacks that have gone on for YEARS now? Seriously? We are all gold diggers, but yet when we show that we can hold our own financially, we are then told we don't need a man. We are told we are all fat, and that is why men don't want us and date other races of women, but then these if you are thin, black men don't want you because you have too much attitude, just like the fat ones. Then the clencher is the when you see these same black men with white women, they don't get Paris Hilton, they get Roseanne Barr. Then if we wear our hair natural,we need a perm, but if we wear perm or weave we are fake. If we wear color contacts we are trying to be white, if we have naturally green or blue eyes we are "ideal beauties". You can't win and be a black woman in America anymore. I have been approached by black men on the basis I have good hair and they want to ensure their children have good hair. Children should not be the first conversation I have with you, when I just met you in front of the Gap at the mall. I have been approached by fat men who want to date a skinny women, and contrary to popular belief, most men, like most women in america of all races are fat, they do not all look like Vin Diesel.
I am personally tired that I as a black woman am constantly stereotyped, not only by people of other races, but by people within my own race.
I am tired of being attacked because some ignorant fool dated women who aren't right for them.
You hit it out of the ballpark with this one. How can someone be so irresponsible? That quote about the security system just baffles me behind belief. However I am not surprised *SMH*
God Bless!
Firstly, let me say (and am I'm going to sound shallow) but I have a hard time listening to anything Steve Harvey has to say because I find him terribly unattractive and his comedy is not too bright.
Harvey seems to address a certain type of black woman - one without education, with kids, and one who is more riddled in male/female type roles. It was easy for me to distance myself from the book, because I am not his target audience. And I would never in a million years be attracted to the type of man Steve Harvey deems worthy of 'getting.'
Sometimes I wonder if black people are so used to being stereotyped and caricatured that we naturally force ourselves into this tiny one-dimensional box. There is no one all-black-male/all-black-female preference.
And why are women always deferring to men and their lame-brained ideas anyway? Are we so stupid and desperate? You never see female authors becoming bestsellers by teaching men how to get a woman. Does anyone know if a female author like this exists? I dunno. Sometimes I lose hope.
I am personally tired that I as a black woman am constantly stereotyped, not only by people of other races, but by people within my own race.
I am tired of being attacked because some ignorant fool dated women who aren't right for them."
Yes for this! It's as if you can't be yourself. You can't win in this situation.
If I reject an average Joe who happens to be Black that I'm not into, I'm told "You just wanna date thugs." No, I'm just not into you. On the opposite end of the spectrum, if a thug-type accosts me on the street and I reject him, it's "You're a sellout." No, it's called having respect for myself to not lower my standards. It's like man, these men try to stick you into one box or another and what you want for yourself just doesn't matter. These stereotypes they have for us drive me insane.
THIS! there was some article in a DC area paper that profiles people on blind dates. Well a black woman rejected a "nice guy" and the black men reading the article on facebook were livid! They said "women only like thugs, blah blah this is why black women end up alone." Ok, just because a woman wasn't attracted to one particular guy doesn't mean she is only attracted to jerks or does not deserve happiness. The message seems to be that black women should be grateful for whatever attention they can get and settle asap or they deserve to die alone.
I am certainly not saying that if the man's a pussy it's the woman's fault that he is so....No, ma'am, that's completely HIS fault and his all by himself.
What I was saying was that, after a while, you know what kind of man you have...One who's going to "be down" for you and trying to do what's right (however you and he feel that is) or one that's just hanging on to you, with you knowing he ain't trying to do none of what you (and he) feels is right in the relationship.
If a woman has figured out what type of man she has, and he's just plain nowhere near what she feels like she wants, needs, and deserves, who she gonna be mad at if she never sees a reason to praise that man for being a man?
I say that in the context that a man is NOT a man just because he's got a grown up's age and dangles between the legs.....I say that in the context that a man is one who knows all of that that is of issue here in this blog, all of it: A man knows that just because his woman has her own, does her own, can do for herself, etc... doesn't mean that she don't need/want him. No, a MAN knows that what he brings to the table is wanted AND needed by the woman he's with. Other men who don't know that just fall into the category of "man" because that's what his physical age has determined him to be.
NOTHING that a MAN is is caused by a woman, EVERYTHING that a MAN is is because of his own doing.
I'm just saying that if your man is a MAN, and he's doing what men do, then what's wrong with giving him a bit of praise every now and again? Just to let him know that even though you coulda made it/did it by yourself, you still appreciate his being around to help you make it/do it with you.
"and we definitely have emotional, mental, and physical needs we would like them to meet. But so do they. One of their needs is to feel like a man. If you are constantly saying you don't need a man to do anything for you, they think you don't. Except maybe for sex. So I say let him open your car door and use a hammer if he wants to ..."
I understand that everyone needs praise to feel more secure. However, it feels like you're staging a play when you do it not because you want them to do but because you're trying to inflate their egos. I want stuff coming out of my mouth not to be rehearsed in any way. It should be natural.
When I put together my dresser from Ikea, it took 8 hours. I did it alone not because I wanted to prove I could, it was because my best friend couldn't help me. And if I could have gotten the same person who carried it on the train for me to put it together for me while I slept, I would have.
Most things, I can do on my own; the fact is I'm really too lazy to do most things, including domestic things; however, if you're a tech person--and I purchase a new computer--I'm calling you to set it up not because I can't do it. I probably can, it will just take a couple more hours. If I call you, it's not about stroking your ego, it's because I want it done fast and right.
Don't tell me I look pretty or that I'm funny, etc. because you think it will curry favor, tell me because I look attractive or I impressed you in some way.
If the sentiment is phony then it will come off as such.
Hope this helps.
I think that what is going on here is less racial per say than something that depends on very old clichés of what the "true nature" of men and women is supposed to be like. I will admit, it brings out my inner feminist a little too (she's still there sometimes :) ) because what the book is really saying is that we should accept these very old fashioned gender rules... And at it's root of Steve Harvey's "advice" , he is really blaming women. He talks about 'standards' and silly things like when women should give up 'the cookie', What he's really saying is "the problem these days is that women are sluts for the most part". And "women have the nerve to act strong and be independent, which is a huge turn off" It's all a bit of an eye-roll, it's all been said before. Some relationship book from the 50s would have the same basic concepts going on... there's really not a lot of content to what he's saying, nor originality. I hate the whole concept of relationships being formed out of strategy and games, sex should be used by women as a bargaining chip, I HATE all that stuff, most of the mentality of this book. I promise you it does not relate to ME, my experience, or my present life AT ALL.
Men and women are different, often, but I would suggest we... think like people and recognize we're both human beings, with thoughts, desires and vulnerabilities.
In institutional racist terms, outcome is the only thing that matters; but in relationships, intent is just as important. I need to know what you're doing is genuine and not some game for you to get what you want.
There is something extremely creepy in running a cost/benefit analysis before you do or say things to your mate.
It doesn't happen like that for Black women anywhere.
I too was dissappointed by Oprah. I am beginning to question her judgement. Rumor is that she is trying to get him a Dr. Phil like show. So a Black woman is going to give a black man a platform to further insult us?
Black women attacks are going to continue to go on probably beyond our lifetime. America is not the most racially supportive country in the world. Being black in America is a strife-ridden path. Having said that, what I am sick of are the women who have hi-jacked the image of black womanhood and live those sterotypes for all the world to see as the norm not the exception. They call themselves 'real black women' and anything else is less than or acting white. Stereotypes develop because there's a small truth that becomes exaggerated and distorted. Some people don't know the difference. Of all the stereotypes you listed, there are women out there that exist like that. Are there gold-diggers out there, yes. Are there ball-busting Sapphires out there that say 'I'm a strong black woman, I don't need a man', yes, there are. Some of them are my girlfriends and they boggle me with their illogic.
Being a black woman is a struggle: you struggle against the black community, you struggle against white people, you struggle against black men and you struggle with black women - all of whom try to tear you down. I should not have to struggle with other black women who's actions and imagery (Supahead, Youtube Booty poppers other forms of ghetto-buffoonery) is somehow seen as more authentically black than I am.
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I HAVE FELT THIS WAY FOR THE LONGEST TIME.
SIMONE
You are 100% correct in your assessment of the plight of the BW. I am grateful for the PRO-BW sites that help destroy LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES about BW. My hope is that as MORE people get to know who REAL BW are and rid themselves of any RACIST, ANTI-BW thinking in their minds/attitudes/actions, BW will begin to be seen/treated in a MORE positive way.