You asked some very good questions. Questions for which there is no clear cut answer. I guess I have to say that it is a combination of all the above. We are now a very much sexually liberated society so quite naturally, we see more of what at one time was considered taboo. Couple that with the fact that religion is on a decline, and one can see this progression quite naturally.
Zek J Evets
· 9 months ago
i think mae west said it best, "marriage is a great institution, but who wants to live in an institution?"
basically, marriage is fundamentally flawed with the way our society is nowadays. we need a different definition of marriage - one that is more diverse, inclusive, less financially stressful, and less legally mandated to cope with these modern times.
RiPPa
· 9 months ago
"basically, marriage is fundamentally flawed with the way our society is nowadays. we need a different definition of marriage - one that is more diverse, inclusive, less financially stressful, and less legally mandated to cope with these modern times."
Historically, marriage was and had more to do with economics than love hence the legal mandate you speak of.
brohammas
· 9 months ago
Sorry Zek, I completely disagree. The decline in marriage and disintegration of family structure is the root cause of much of our society’s trouble. Poverty increases with broken family. Education and achievement declines in proportion to family decline. Broken family breeds broken family and the downward spiral continues. The solution would not make sense to abandon traditional family to try to solve the problems caused by the break up of that same institution. Wouldn’t it seam more logical to return to the system and structure that prevent moral or social decay? Was it woman’s lib? The sexual revolution? Decline in religiosity? Why just one of things and not a combination of all, and then some others as well? Why woman’s lib and not just absent fathers? How about the sexual exploitation of women in the media creating a premium on sexual gratification rather than solid relationships? Forget what Oprah says, marriage is not outdated but rather a more and more ignored cornerstone of our society.
Kat
· 9 months ago
I think marriage has declined because having kids out of wedlock is no longer a social stigma. Nowadays, you don't need to be married to have a kid. If a young girl got pregnant anytime before 1970, she'd have a shotgun wedding or her whole family would be shamed and considered outcasts in the neighborhood. That still happens today in socially conservative countries.
I think divorce is increasing because of financial difficulties and less family friendly policies in the U.S than Europe as well as less social stigma against a woman filing for divorce.
It does seem that the Women's/Feminist/Sexual Freedom movement and less religiosity coincided with the decline in marriage & out-of-wedlock births.
Grata
· 9 months ago
Funny you ask about having chilldren unmarried in the era of the Octo-mum SMH!
I come from a broken home and like Brohammas said its a downward spiral. I never had fantasies of marriage since I never saw a decent one around me. My 3 siblings that got married are now divorced. A Broken family environment is a breeding ground for most of sociey's ills. I don't care how people try to spin it. Personally I am simply lucky to be alive and somewhat survived the trauma of it all. I believe being in Africa helped because the community as a whole still has expectations of you. Were there is no parent, there is a school teacher or Matron to talk to you and guide you. And at home, there are neighbors and relatives who look out for you. Unfortunately this system is slowly breaking down.
If I were in a Western country, I would be completley useless, if alive.
The institution is breaking down partly because of high levels of individualism and consumerist type relationships. People are taking care of themselves first. And that is a recipe for disaster in any partneship. If things get slightly uncomfortable you can "return" things and get your "refund".
A classic example of this culture is the common reference to potential mates as hot! Seriously? People are making committments because a person is hot? Hollywood is to thank for this one with all the trophy wifing going on.
For me, I don't know yet if I want to get married. If I meet the right peron, then maybe I will but I am not holding my breath. The side effect of my family's disfunction was that I never got carefully groomed to follow society's rules, so I pretty much craft my own rules as I go. And there is tremendous freedom in that. And I am glad that atleast I gained that from an otherwise bad situation. I am simply lucky.
However, children need to be taken care of in a stable home enviroment. Everyone can blame the teachers the media etc but as a parent, you are the primary source. I know, the few moments my parents were involved with me did make a big difference much better than total absence. So if people are having doubts about the institution of marriage, one thin remains constant, the children and they must be taken care of.
Mr. Noface
· 9 months ago
I agree with Brohamas. Marriage is not outdated, a lot people just don’t know how to do it right anymore (if we ever did in this country). In the simplest terms, marriage was seen simply as a covenant between a man and a woman to come together and pursue their goals as one unit (love, family, harmony, security, etc). For that covenant to be honored properly there has to be some give and take, (compromise) in order for a kind of harmony to be achieved. That is at odds with the “you can have it all” mentality, so a lot of people don’t even bother with marriage. I too believe that a combination of events led to the decline in the institution of marriage so I’m not saying that this is the one thing that did it. I’m willing to bet however, that it is one of the major factors that caused the shift.
Moviegirl
· 9 months ago
Maybe black women were ahead of their time...
thelady
· 9 months ago
Hate to say it but I think premarital sex killed marriage. The only reason people get married young is to have sex. I'm not saying these marriages last but at least they make the attempt. Now, people have been having sex for 10+ years before they even CONSIDER getting married. Maybe they feel been there done that, already had sex, been pregnant, had kids, why bother? At the same time these things are more common in the black community,pretty much every white woman I know has either been proposed to, engaged or married, some more than once. The black women I know are lucky to get one proposal.
Sandra
· 9 months ago
When they say that 70% of black women are single does that include women in long-term relationships who are not married?
Anonymous
· 9 months ago
I guess in the black community marriage isn't seen as a priority because so many of us put the cart before the hoarse anyway. ALot of black women get pregnant before they even move in with a guy, or even know the guy well enough to know he probably is not going to be a good father. Black men and women need to change this, because it reflects very badly on our communities. Usually, and this is from my own personal observation, the guy does not marry the baby mama. In all honesty this seems to be mostly a problem in our community. I also do not condone getting married just because you should be married by a certain age, unless maybe you want kids. BUt times are changing, and the family dynamic will never be the same. It would be nice to have both parents in the home, but not if the parens are all screwed up creating more dysfunctional human beings to deal with in this crazy world.
Beautifully.Conjured.Up
· 9 months ago
Our whole ideology of what the "norm" is has changed, hence a plethora of "standards" have changed also.
American Black Chick in London
· 9 months ago
Well said brohammas!
After watching several of my older cousins have kids out wedlock (sometimes with multiple fathers), I must agree that marriage as an institution does seem to be in decline.
I know that the rise in feminisim sometimes get blamed for the breakdown of the 2 parent household...but I don't think that's it. I think folks now are willing to give up on marriage to easily. My mom's parents were married for over 50 years, until the day my grandfather died. My parents are still married and have been for over 35 years. Has it always been easy? Gosh no, but I learned watching my parents and grandparents over the years that it takes more than love for a marriage to succeed. It takes hard work and compromise, which I don't think are really emphasized enough when it comes to marriages now. I get the sense that when the going gets tough, too many people just give up and walk away.
Winnowill
· 9 months ago
I know it is more often more comforting to go on anecdoctal evidence, and insist that the decline of traditional marriage has contributed to the social ills we seem to be experiencing at a disproportionate rate, like poverty, out of wedlock births, increasing crime, etc. Combine our non-empirical convictions with the lack of understanding of the difference between correlation and causation and basic statistical analyis, and it is easy to conclude that the erosion of "traditional" family structures has contributed to a contemporary social and moral decline.
However, one must look a lot deeper, including at the relationship between commerce and industry and the family, how governmental policies supported certan family structures and negatively impacted others, other social changes wrought by redefining the family, like laws to prevent and punish child abuse, domestic violence, child labor, and marital rape, as well as more women obtaining post-secondary education and entering the labor force, the greater access to and efficacy of birth control and family planning methods, and the transition from an more industrialized, mechanized labor force to a technologically based labor force. Some of these changes emerged as off-shoots of feminism, and many more emerged concurrently and were part of an integrated web of social movements.
In addition, with respect to religiosity, it did not so much as decline as to change forms, with the emergence of non-Western spiritual paths and new religious movements, which also challenged the ideas for the spiritual basis of traditional marriage. Such a complex institution cannot be viewed in a simplistic way, and certainly not without examining how the institution itself has evolved and been redefined over the centuries, not just since the '60's. If you really want to delve into this fascinating issue, with some facts to back up your pursuit, read "The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap" and "Marriage: A History", both by Stephanie Coontz. One of the most fascinating things about "Marriage: A History" is how it reveals that as marriage changed over time from a financial, economic and political transaction to one based on love and commitment, it ironically became weaker as a social institution. Great sociological studies with substantiated data that often flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Definitely worth checking out.
G
· 9 months ago
Personally, it was more having to do with love than to do with economics.
But I do understand where the decline is coming from.
I would think that to a certain degree it would be someone's personal preference whether or not they get married.
Just because someone wants to have children, doesn't necessarily mean that marriage has to be. I'm certainly not being old fashioned at my particular age (43), but I'm seeing more people basically being content with being single and semi-attached (if that makes any sense) with children, as opposed to being married with children.
lormarie
· 9 months ago
I don't think marriage is antiquated at all...not sure if it ever will be. I can't speak for others but I am very hesitant about marriage due to the "risk" of divorce and the problems that could lead to it. I think, what's the point of getting married when I KNOW there are certain instances where I'd divorce in a New York minute (infidelity). I'd say that infidelity is the primary reason I don't want to marry. I suspect others have the same fears which is why we see the recent stats. What will work for me is a happy dating life. Then again, there's the religious issue that still hangs over my head about dating instead of marriage....
So maybe it's fear that keeps people from marrying these days.
lormarie
· 9 months ago
Hate to say it but I think premarital sex killed marriage. The only reason people get married young is to have sex.--the lady
This is especially true among religious communities.
digitalcoyote
· 9 months ago
There are a few reasons I'm not in a big rush to get married.
I've noticed the people that push the hardest in this regard (IE telling me I need to "hurry up" and get hitched)are or were miserable in their marriages. The people with happier marriages don't say a word about it: they're content to enjoy their lives as I enjoy mine own. Their mindsets are also very different compared to the other group because they've said they were looking forward to their partnerships rather than the wedding.
I don't have children, so I have no need to secure their rights as heirs. Fuck chomping at the bit: my family has the bullhorn to my ear screaming for me to reproduce. Getting hitched would only serve to amplify that noise because babies would be the next logical thing to do.
A ring does not guarantee a man will keep it in his pants; same thing goes for women as well. It's the same risk as being single.
If something bad goes down, I want to retain the right to leave and sever ties instantly. There's an awful lot of damage that can be done to a person physically, mentally, spiritually, and financially while waiting for the courts to tell you it's okay to separate.
In that same vein, divorce and family law are seriously fucked up. I don't think I should be able to take half a man's stuff and keep him paying support indefinitely because I have a vagina. (This is extreme, but it's happening: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_...) If there were children in the picture, I think they should be given to the parent who can best take care of them. Yes, the relationship between a mother and child is unique, but I shouldn't be put in a position where I could irreparably harm the child because I gave birth to it. Mom isn't always the best person to parent.
Ultimately, I don't want to feel trapped by a marriage or a family because I didn't give myself enough time to be myself and be comfortable in that. I think a lot of women rush in to it because we're told we can have it all. Sometimes, they've bitten off more than they can chew. Other times, they can't let go of who or what they used to be. I saw a woman on Supernanny that couldn't get over not being a cheerleader anymore. She hated her kids because of it (no more sylph-y teenage figure) and kept her old uniforms to relive her glory. I know people like that in real life, though extreme diets and Botox seem to be how they're going to relive their youth.
If I settle down, it'll be because I'm confident in my ability to be a good person to myself and a better one to my husband and whatever sprouts we bring in to this world.
212542
· 9 months ago
The decline IMO has to do with men generally refusing to marry. I believe women as a group still love the idea of marriage & children with a white picket fence. I don't think men see the real benefits of marriage when it comes to them. Their thinking is usually 'if a divorce happens, how much money will I lose?'. Throw it in the fact nowadays everyone is cohabiting. Back in day that was a no no unless you where married. Unmarried men are getting all the perks a married man would get. So unless he's very religious why should men marry?
MrsRony
· 9 months ago
Having been married almost 9 yrs I must say Im not real big on the institution. LOL I was also, to my parents horror, one of the few girls who never wanted to get married but wanted kids.
I do wish people were using as much caution to procreate as they are seeming to do with marriage. Men of all races I think go with whatever is required of them. If they can get away without marriage..so be it.
I think part of the decline of "marriage" is the fact that it is now okay for women to want and expect more from life. We encourage our girls to be independent and to be all they can be. Women now get a choice without all the stigma (stigma isnt totally gone). When you look at the couples who've been married 30+ yrs you see women who have sacrificed much and thought that the marriage was the pinnacle of their life. That is no longer acceptable for most of us.
We've been trained, as women, that we are supposed to want to be married and procreate. I think its wonderful that we are taking the time to evaluate that. The days of leaving your parents home to cleave to your man are over. I dont want my boy/girls even thinking about marriage until they are over 30. Marriage is no longer the highest bar we can obtain. Thank God!
Teen sex/pregnancy thing IMHO stems from bad parenting and over stimulation in America. These kids are craving something. Attention, love, desire to please. Teaching abstinence is a joke. No one has ever been able to keep kids from having sex but they have valued their quality of life and reputation and they used to be taught their worth as humans. That is rarely being done in this society.
Beautifully.Conjured.Up
· 9 months ago
BTW, I gave you an award on my blog :)
Ehav Ever
· 9 months ago
I think you are correct that it is an evolution in American social norms. I think this evolution is due to a number of circumstances which include media, changes in culture, the loss of cultural connectivness, etc.
For example, here in the Middle East even with the changes in social norms both Israelis and Arabs marry younger. Marriage here is a big thing. Most people here I meet are married in their early or mid 20's.
The places that are more western orientated, and less connected to their cultural family structures often marry a lot later. People connected to their family structure often marry a lot younger here.
It is like the old Middle Eastern saying goes, if you want to see great-grand children marry young. That may be the difference between the western focus where marriage, in some cases, is less about having children and continuing on a particular legacy, but more of an institution around the marriage itself.
Black girl with long hair
· 9 months ago
hmm this is interesting. really really interesting. i think it helps to have a 'life partner' but that's as far as i've gotten in thinking about the whole marriage thing...
All Comments
basically, marriage is fundamentally flawed with the way our society is nowadays. we need a different definition of marriage - one that is more diverse, inclusive, less financially stressful, and less legally mandated to cope with these modern times.
Historically, marriage was and had more to do with economics than love hence the legal mandate you speak of.
The solution would not make sense to abandon traditional family to try to solve the problems caused by the break up of that same institution. Wouldn’t it seam more logical to return to the system and structure that prevent moral or social decay?
Was it woman’s lib? The sexual revolution? Decline in religiosity? Why just one of things and not a combination of all, and then some others as well?
Why woman’s lib and not just absent fathers? How about the sexual exploitation of women in the media creating a premium on sexual gratification rather than solid relationships?
Forget what Oprah says, marriage is not outdated but rather a more and more ignored cornerstone of our society.
I think divorce is increasing because of financial difficulties and less family friendly policies in the U.S than Europe as well as less social stigma against a woman filing for divorce.
It does seem that the Women's/Feminist/Sexual Freedom movement and less religiosity coincided with the decline in marriage & out-of-wedlock births.
I come from a broken home and like Brohammas said its a downward spiral. I never had fantasies of marriage since I never saw a decent one around me. My 3 siblings that got married are now divorced.
A Broken family environment is a breeding ground for most of sociey's ills. I don't care how people try to spin it.
Personally I am simply lucky to be alive and somewhat survived the trauma of it all. I believe being in Africa helped because the community as a whole still has expectations of you. Were there is no parent, there is a school teacher or Matron to talk to you and guide you. And at home, there are neighbors and relatives who look out for you. Unfortunately this system is slowly breaking down.
If I were in a Western country, I would be completley useless, if alive.
The institution is breaking down partly because of high levels of individualism and consumerist type relationships.
People are taking care of themselves first. And that is a recipe for disaster in any partneship. If things get slightly uncomfortable you can "return" things and get your "refund".
A classic example of this culture is the common reference to potential mates as hot! Seriously? People are making committments because a person is hot? Hollywood is to thank for this one with all the trophy wifing going on.
For me, I don't know yet if I want to get married. If I meet the right peron, then maybe I will but I am not holding my breath.
The side effect of my family's disfunction was that I never got carefully groomed to follow society's rules, so I pretty much craft my own rules as I go. And there is tremendous freedom in that. And I am glad that atleast I gained that from an otherwise bad situation. I am simply lucky.
However, children need to be taken care of in a stable home enviroment. Everyone can blame the teachers the media etc but as a parent, you are the primary source. I know, the few moments my parents were involved with me did make a big difference much better than total absence.
So if people are having doubts about the institution of marriage, one thin remains constant, the children and they must be taken care of.
After watching several of my older cousins have kids out wedlock (sometimes with multiple fathers), I must agree that marriage as an institution does seem to be in decline.
I know that the rise in feminisim sometimes get blamed for the breakdown of the 2 parent household...but I don't think that's it. I think folks now are willing to give up on marriage to easily. My mom's parents were married for over 50 years, until the day my grandfather died. My parents are still married and have been for over 35 years. Has it always been easy? Gosh no, but I learned watching my parents and grandparents over the years that it takes more than love for a marriage to succeed. It takes hard work and compromise, which I don't think are really emphasized enough when it comes to marriages now. I get the sense that when the going gets tough, too many people just give up and walk away.
However, one must look a lot deeper, including at the relationship between commerce and industry and the family, how governmental policies supported certan family structures and negatively impacted others, other social changes wrought by redefining the family, like laws to prevent and punish child abuse, domestic violence, child labor, and marital rape, as well as more women obtaining post-secondary education and entering the labor force, the greater access to and efficacy of birth control and family planning methods, and the transition from an more industrialized, mechanized labor force to a technologically based labor force. Some of these changes emerged as off-shoots of feminism, and many more emerged concurrently and were part of an integrated web of social movements.
In addition, with respect to religiosity, it did not so much as decline as to change forms, with the emergence of non-Western spiritual paths and new religious movements, which also challenged the ideas for the spiritual basis of traditional marriage. Such a complex institution cannot be viewed in a simplistic way, and certainly not without examining how the institution itself has evolved and been redefined over the centuries, not just since the '60's. If you really want to delve into this fascinating issue, with some facts to back up your pursuit, read "The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap" and "Marriage: A History", both by Stephanie Coontz. One of the most fascinating things about "Marriage: A History" is how it reveals that as marriage changed over time from a financial, economic and political transaction to one based on love and commitment, it ironically became weaker as a social institution. Great sociological studies with substantiated data that often flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Definitely worth checking out.
But I do understand where the decline is coming from.
I would think that to a certain degree it would be someone's personal preference whether or not they get married.
Just because someone wants to have children, doesn't necessarily mean that marriage has to be. I'm certainly not being old fashioned at my particular age (43), but I'm seeing more people basically being content with being single and semi-attached (if that makes any sense) with children, as opposed to being married with children.
So maybe it's fear that keeps people from marrying these days.
This is especially true among religious communities.
I've noticed the people that push the hardest in this regard (IE telling me I need to "hurry up" and get hitched)are or were miserable in their marriages. The people with happier marriages don't say a word about it: they're content to enjoy their lives as I enjoy mine own. Their mindsets are also very different compared to the other group because they've said they were looking forward to their partnerships rather than the wedding.
I don't have children, so I have no need to secure their rights as heirs. Fuck chomping at the bit: my family has the bullhorn to my ear screaming for me to reproduce. Getting hitched would only serve to amplify that noise because babies would be the next logical thing to do.
A ring does not guarantee a man will keep it in his pants; same thing goes for women as well. It's the same risk as being single.
If something bad goes down, I want to retain the right to leave and sever ties instantly. There's an awful lot of damage that can be done to a person physically, mentally, spiritually, and financially while waiting for the courts to tell you it's okay to separate.
In that same vein, divorce and family law are seriously fucked up. I don't think I should be able to take half a man's stuff and keep him paying support indefinitely because I have a vagina. (This is extreme, but it's happening: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_...) If there were children in the picture, I think they should be given to the parent who can best take care of them. Yes, the relationship between a mother and child is unique, but I shouldn't be put in a position where I could irreparably harm the child because I gave birth to it. Mom isn't always the best person to parent.
Ultimately, I don't want to feel trapped by a marriage or a family because I didn't give myself enough time to be myself and be comfortable in that. I think a lot of women rush in to it because we're told we can have it all. Sometimes, they've bitten off more than they can chew. Other times, they can't let go of who or what they used to be. I saw a woman on Supernanny that couldn't get over not being a cheerleader anymore. She hated her kids because of it (no more sylph-y teenage figure) and kept her old uniforms to relive her glory. I know people like that in real life, though extreme diets and Botox seem to be how they're going to relive their youth.
If I settle down, it'll be because I'm confident in my ability to be a good person to myself and a better one to my husband and whatever sprouts we bring in to this world.
I don't think men see the real benefits of marriage when it comes to them. Their thinking is usually 'if a divorce happens, how much money will I lose?'.
Throw it in the fact nowadays everyone is cohabiting. Back in day that was a no no unless you where married.
Unmarried men are getting all the perks a married man would get. So unless he's very religious why should men marry?
I do wish people were using as much caution to procreate as they are seeming to do with marriage. Men of all races I think go with whatever is required of them. If they can get away without marriage..so be it.
I think part of the decline of "marriage" is the fact that it is now okay for women to want and expect more from life. We encourage our girls to be independent and to be all they can be. Women now get a choice without all the stigma (stigma isnt totally gone). When you look at the couples who've been married 30+ yrs you see women who have sacrificed much and thought that the marriage was the pinnacle of their life. That is no longer acceptable for most of us.
We've been trained, as women, that we are supposed to want to be married and procreate. I think its wonderful that we are taking the time to evaluate that. The days of leaving your parents home to cleave to your man are over. I dont want my boy/girls even thinking about marriage until they are over 30. Marriage is no longer the highest bar we can obtain. Thank God!
Teen sex/pregnancy thing IMHO stems from bad parenting and over stimulation in America. These kids are craving something. Attention, love, desire to please. Teaching abstinence is a joke. No one has ever been able to keep kids from having sex but they have valued their quality of life and reputation and they used to be taught their worth as humans. That is rarely being done in this society.
For example, here in the Middle East even with the changes in social norms both Israelis and Arabs marry younger. Marriage here is a big thing. Most people here I meet are married in their early or mid 20's.
The places that are more western orientated, and less connected to their cultural family structures often marry a lot later. People connected to their family structure often marry a lot younger here.
It is like the old Middle Eastern saying goes, if you want to see great-grand children marry young. That may be the difference between the western focus where marriage, in some cases, is less about having children and continuing on a particular legacy, but more of an institution around the marriage itself.